A Bad Week for Alt-Vehicles: Plug-In Hybrids Could Pollute More, Ethanol Fires Harder to Put Out

[…] lt-Vehicles: Plug-In Hybrids Could Pollute More, Ethanol Fires Harder to Put Out TCC Blog placed an observative post today on A Bad Week for Alt-Vehicles: Plug-In Hybrids Co […]

More bad news for plug-in hybrids for the relative short run? California, where the biggest interest will likely be, is on the bubble as far as electric power is right now. Add in plug-in hybrids and brownouts should be the result. Yes, most of the demand would be at off-peak hours as cars will be recharged over night, but if even some are recharged during the day, where does that leave California?

And as we’ve noted elsewhere, alcohol takes a lot of water to make and if it’s to come from Iowa (even if from switchgrass or whatever), there’s still a lot of water being pulled up from the aquifer. Drill that well a little deeper, Elmer, at least until the water runs out.

Of course there’s one big reason for the rush to E85: the timing of the Iowa caucuses. And despite the farmers’ complaints that they never see the benefit from increased corn prices (the middleman gets it all, they say), your food prices–from bread to milk to beer–are going up.

Gee, if we had already drilled in ANWAR…

Typical Anti propaganda - A straw man argument.

The way to do it is to take the new technology (in this case, plug-ins) and mix it with the lowest end technology of the other components in the system (coal fired power plants designed 100 years ago that should be phased out regardless).

Then, you compute the pollution.

The answer: Plug-ins even in the worst case would still be better than a normal vehicle today, yet you spin it so that they look like they’re not better than a normal hybrid in a state that is still using the most outdated technology for generating power in the world.

Do not fall for this bogus logic. Combine the new technology of the plug-in hybrid with the power generating technologies that are coming on line in the next 10 years, when these things will be produced. If we subsidize clean energy and tax fossil fuel use modestly, we can make a 50 year transition to solar and wind energy, incredibly efficient technologies, minimized effects of global warming, and a lack of dependence on dictators for our daily needs.

That’s my dream, and no lies from the Antis will keep me from it.

It’s no straw man when 40 percent of power in the mountain West comes from coal - and will for the foreseeable future. (should be phased out? Maybe. Will be? Not anytime soon.)

What a load of crap from USA Today on PHEV applications. There is excess capacity on the Grid at night, the most likely time for PHEV’s to be recharged cycle. Further moves to a smart gird will enable PHEV’s to give back to the grid during the day when parked - a distributed power source.

Further, a concerted and honest effort to clean-up all power generation sources further enhances the emission reduction benefits PHEV — it’s hard to argue that 125 - 150 mpg fuel efficiency and driving the average daily commute in a zero emissions mode is bad for the environment, national security, and your pocketbook. A national RPS is coming and it will move utilities to cleaner and renewable electrical generation sources, which promotes solar and wind, and weighs the true cost of coal and nuclear as energy options. But, we’re not going to get there through a policy of environmentally expensive bio-fuels, more dirty diesels and coal, and denying that immediate corrective clean-tech action is required and should both a national and global priority.

The headline of the story wasn’t justified by the actual article. For the original story, 2 comments, and a response by Natural Resources Defense Council, see 2 reccent postings at the CalCars-News Archive http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html .

Felix Kramer, Founder, CalCars.org

I think our government screwed up with promoting Ethanol E85 instead of natural-gas for powering US cars and trucks. Currently our natural-gas supply comes from the US and Canada. If more cars used natural-gas we definitely would have to import more of it from Canada, but that would be a lot better than buying oil at $100+/barrel from the Middle East. Also natural gas is one of the lowest polluting fuels currently available. Converting used cars and new car to run on natural gas would be relately easy and much less costly than building Fuel-Cell, Hybrids, or electric battery powered vehicles. Also, the technology to do it is available right now. Most families could add natural gas fueling stations in their garages. All we would need is more local gas stations to provide natural-gas fueling stations. In addition, Natural-gas would be a safer fuel than gasoline.

“Two reports suggest that tailpipe emissions could be more than offset by the higher emissions from power plants generating the electricity required to recharge the plug-in hybrids, particularly in areas where coal-burning plants are the norm.”

This blanket statement is at least misleading for the current blend of power generation in the US and, as far as GHGs are concerned, it will become completely untrue as the US imports more and more oil from the Canadian oil sands. Actually, the statement leads one to conclude that we should be more focused on reducing the “higher emissions from power plants”.

And smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer?

We can expect a lot more of this kind of propaganda as we start to move towards an economy that relies less on oil.

I agree 100% with Carnut4ever that CNG (compressed natural gas) is the answer. Argentina & Brazil both have passed 1.5M cng vehicles with 15% to 30% annual growth while USA is miserable with only 147,000 cng vehicles with virtually 0 growth. I’ve bought 5 cng cars in past year (3 for my family & 2 for friends) and LOVE them!! Drove Honda Civic GX from NY to OK all on cng . . yes NO gasoline at all as Civic GX is dedicated cng, and cng price ranged from $2.48 in NY to $2 in NM to $0.91 in all of Oklahoma. I get 30 to 35 mpg so here in OK that works out to over 100 mpg considering cng is only $0.91 per gge (gallon of gas equivalent). Only paid $7,200 for car so my cost per mile is a pittance of what Prius owners pay !! Educate yourself on CNG (see http://www.iangv.org ; greencarcongress.com) and FORCE the US automakers to sell here in USA the cng cars they sell in Europe, Asia & S America!!! GM, Ford, VW & Mercedes all sell cng vehicles elsewhere but NONE in USA !! Toyota abandoned their terrific Camry cng back in 2001 !! Come on !! Only Honda sells here in USA the wonderful Honda Civic GX which is dedicated cng car. Vote Pres Bush & his Big Oil cronies OUT of office, disband the EPA, and FORCE all mega gas stations to have public cng all across the country to expand the 1,600 cng pumps now currently clustered in CA, UT, OK, & east coast. By the way, avoid Clean Energy at all costs as CE is wolf in sheep’s clothing . . . Big Oil owner T Boone Pickens just wanting monopoly of cng since Peak Oil has occurred! Every state dominated by Clean Energy has the highest cng prices . . NY at $2.48, CO at $2.49 TX at $2.29, CA at 2.40 etc. CE is forcing monopoly PRICE GOUGING as Federal govmt gives a $0.60 per gge Federal Tax Excise credit!! If Utah can sell cng throughout UT for $0.64 and OK for $0.91, surely rest of country can do it for under $1.50 per gge!! Go CNG !!

Yet more proof that our political leaders don’t have a clue… They dump on the auto industry with increased CAFE requirements when the U.S. auto manufacturers are struggling while ignoring the rest of the polution sources across the country. The problem obviously isn’t hybrid vehicles - it’s the source of the polution!
When the Interstate Highway system was built in this country it happened because our political leaders saw the need for the jobs and the roads. Today we need a similar project to bring our energy sources out of the industrial era and into modern times. Coal burning plants need to be either upgraded to acceptable levels (if that’s even possible) or phased out in favor of cleaner energy sources.

Describe the above article with one word: Propaganda. Plug-in hybrids can be charged with solar roof panels on your home. Try that with a petroleum powered vehicle. Do you want to be manipulated by Big Oil? Or do you want to free yourself? The majority of us will be able to drive to and from work, without using a drop of liquid fuel all week. That ought to tell you who is threatened by this new technology, and who is paying to put-out twisted studies bashing biofuels and plug-ins. Plug into the grid at night, and you are using cheaper, off peak energy, most of which would have gone to waste. In fact, operating your vehicle on electric power from the grid is 1/3 the cost of using petroleum based fuels. That ought to tell you that it is much more efficient. As more people plug-in at night, yes, power plants will need to burn more fossil fuels, but that will displace the inefficient liquid fossil fuels you were pumping into your tank. Furthermore, it will be much more feasible to scrub the exhaust and sequester CO2 from a couple thousand out of town power plants, than to clean-up 240 million vehicles already on the road. Plug-ins will clean-up the air in urban centers, lower our health care costs, and increase our productivity. Don’t be fooled by this smear campaign. It was another good week for alternative energy, biofuels and plug-in hybrids, if you ignore the bogus studies that were paid for by the status quo.

Why don’t you just get the facts from someone who had driven a PHEV for the past year or so?

Think, Jeff, think! Since the idea behind Plug in Hybrids is to charge them at night, you just might have a problem trying to charge them using solar panels on the roof of your home.
Most of us go to work during the day and so it would take an awfully long extention cord to do the trick! On the other hand, if you don’t need to go to work during the day then a plug in hybrid would probably be wasted on you.
On another note, it has been noticed that a great number of people swim in the Pacific ocean, and while doing so, some of them actually urinate while swimming. Since the Human body maintains a temperature of 98.2 degrees Farenheit and the Pacific ocean averages only 53 Degrees, they radically alter the temperature of the water causing an increase in temperature the air as it passes over the ocean and causing the melting of the Ice floes and Icebergs and the extinction of the Polar Bears and increasing the problem of global warming.
To combat this I am going to call my Congressman and demand that a law be written that requires that all swimmers be required to wear insulated Codpieces at all times.
If you doubt that we are causing global warming, just ask the man who invented the internet….

Alternative fuel vehicles are a joke. Gasoline is the most efficient and desirable fuel for all cars. Global warming is a hoax. Wake up, dolts, before you find yourselves freezing in the dark with your silly little microcars.

A lot of people on this chain want to change the equation - USA Today’s piece talked about the grid as it is today. What if solar panels did provide enough juice to charge plug-ins? Not everyone has them, you can’t say how many people would spring for them down the road, and they don’t work well in all climates. Here and now, plug-ins have some deficits that need to be explored before the world commits to them.

Stop funding the terrorists!

No more Oil Wars!

Energy Independence Now!

Drill in Anwar.

Build more nuclear power plants

Use More coal.

Use more natural gas

Turn trash into energy

Double the efficiency of windmills and solar cells.

If France can do nuclear power so can we.

If Brazil can do biomass/ethanol power so can we.

If Australia can do LNG power so can we.

Domestically produced energy will end the recession and spur the economy.

Stop paying oil dollars to those who worship daily at the alter of our destruction.

Preserve our Civil Rights and defend our Freedom by ending dependence on foreign oil.

I’M CONVINCED NOW!.

THE AUTO INDUSTRY, NOT ONLY CAN NOT BUILD AUTO[s]: THEY ALSO NO LONGER WANT TOO[BUILD].

MUST HAVE TO DO WITH THE MONEY THING!.

Give it all away!, to the Asian, it will be a refreshing change of PACE?.

If we’re getting electricity from green sources (i.e. Solar), then this point is moot.

Poetryman69 said it.

So, there is trouble in paradise. Naturally, to gain something, you have to give something, and before we rush head long into a parallel future that may turn out to be worse than that we’re experiencing, like disposing of nuclear waste, we need to consider the consequences of our intentions. Just because media types hype things such as the hydrogen powered vehicle that uses a highly flammible fuel, does not mean the auto makers need to rush willy-nilly into the abyss.

Beautifully said Poetryman69.

Only one problem: A bunch of tree huggers will jump up and down if and when we talk about drilling right here in the US, or using nuclear energy. These self-hate, self-defeat, self-punish liberal idiots have a logic of a 7-year old.

Their logic is to make us pay for our sin (using oil and pollute), while other countries continue to pollute, continue to build coal mines (China and India), and most of third world countries can’t afford to go green. They can hardly get by with whatever means available to them. Global warming doesn’t stop at their borders morons (Global - get it?)

So these tree huggers will do everything they can to tax ourselves, to make things more expensive here, while turning a blind eye to pollution from around the world. A very typical self-hate, self-defeat, self-punish liberal idiots.